An illuminating blast from "the coalface of independent documentary film"... Vicki Lesley shares the process behind making her excellent film, with only the barest hint of the pain... for anyone who has gone through those years of (unpaid) grind to take a germ of an idea to fruition (which take an age, while seeming to be over in minutes) this is a compelling and shocking, read. But as a film for the ages, 'Atom' will continue to inform, engage and provoke.
Thanks for such lovely words Helen! I’m also aware that I’m horrendously overdue replying to your last email from, I dunno, probably a hundred years ago now! Shall we do a video call soon..? xx
Extraordinary grit and determination on your part, Vicki, to make your important film (I found it fascinating). Amazing that independent documentary films get made at all, with the financial obstacles you describe.
Ah, I’m so glad you found it interesting Wendy - I know numbers can be a bit dry but I really wanted to share mine and hopefully I managed to do it in a way that was vaguely enjoyable to read..! It really is a very tough business and only getting tougher I think. I’m gonna need to be in a much better place financially before I can realistically think about a second feature. But I haven’t given up on docs yet.
Thank you for being uncomfortably transparent. It really is refreshing your honesty about working unpaid for over a decade while still making a film. That is such dedication and devotion.
I was pretty nervous to share (I deliberately scheduled the post to go out in the early hours when I would be asleep so I couldn’t chicken out 😄) But I genuinely think people don’t really understand what goes into making films, especially when so many people are filming and editing content at no to low cost with their phones etc. But there’s a big difference between that and an entire feature film. So I’m happy if I can play some part in shining a light on the massive slog that goes in to getting these kinds of films made…
This reminded me of my own efforts to write books that cost me money to write, but yours being at so much a larger scale, the two are not comparable. Around the time I retired, I was very keen to write a book about hospice care from the viewpoint of hospice carers – nurses, doctors, managers, even a very interesting chef. I wanted to use the method I had used in projects commissioned by others, ie interviews. This involved paying the interviewers, the transcribers and other incidental travel, tape recorders etc and the total was probably c £7000 twenty years ago. I used to say "some people go on skiing holidays, but I like to write a book about hospice care". The book sells but I have never recouped the cost. BUT the real difference is the size of the cost. Yours is mind-boggling. What balls you must have to have taken it on at all!
I know most people who know me thought I was mad for most of the years I was making the film 😄 But it was just something I wanted to do and I guess I was a bit like a dog with a bone once I got started - if I've got nothing else it's sticking power to just keep on keeping on. It's funny you mention about saying some people go on ski-ing holidays, while you chose to write your book, cos that's exactly the analogy I used so many times to people (usually gym membership, but the point's the same eh!) I know no-one is owed the privilege of making money from their creative endeavours. But there were still some pretty big sums involved here (as in all films). Just none of it came my way. I do think there needs to be more of a conversation about that balance so am hoping putting my head above the parapet will help encourage it.
Well, I must admit it was a real eye-opener for me. I had no idea of the sums required, although I would have guessed they were a lot higher than mine.
I don’t know what you were hoping from your readers. In a sense, it seems like a plea for donations, but the sums are SO high, it is impossible to meet them. If said you were a single mother and completely penniless and needed £100, say, it would be easy to send a cheque for most of it or all of it – but yours are outside the ballpark.
Oh I hope it didn't read like I was asking for money here! I actually did ask for small sums of money several times during the crowdfunding campaigns - and I expect to do that again for the next short doc I want to make (the individual donations of ten or twenty or even a hundred quid do add up and make an important contribution when you're trying to raise the budget in production).
But the main point of the piece was to shine a light on what things actually cost for people who don't know anything about how docs are funded. And for people actually working in docs to be super transparent, both as an act of solidarity with other filmmakers and to give an honest real world example to executives who fund and buy documentaries about the realities of the sector.
Vicki, this is the most riveting newsletter/whatever I’ve read in months. I was transfixed, partly because my only knowledge of such matters has been my understanding of book self-publishing’s economics, partly because we need selfless efforts like yours.Your perseverance is an inspiration. And your courage in opening yourself up to scrutiny sets an example for all of us.
Oh wow, I'm blushing at such compliments! Often my perseverance felt like a personality flaw (I'd berate myself that most 'normal' people would have given it up as a bad job long before I did) but I'm honestly glad I kept on going. I'm really proud of what I've achieved with the film . It just sucks that the current system means I had to suffer so much financial pain to do it...
This was relentlessly brave & informative, Vicki. Thank you so much for sharing. I'll make sure to check out your documentary. I always wanted to know more about the topic too!! Also love the topics you want to explore further ❤️
Thanks Sophie. You were one of the people who inspired me to speak up after you were so fearlessly open about the shitty situation with your Jeremy Strong-Kieran Culkin article being "borrowed" (the inverted commas doing some *heavy* lifting..!) Love to hear what you think of the film if you do get a chance to watch it 😊
I so appreciate your candor. Doc filmmaking is an almost impossible passion to take on at the best of times but we have to go in with our eyes wide open. Thank you!
I so appreciate your candor. Doc filmmaking is an almost impossible passion to take on at the best of times but we have to go in with our eyes wide open. Thank you!
I so appreciate your candor. Doc filmmaking is an almost impossible passion to take on at the best of times but we have to go in with our eyes wide open. Thank you!
Wow Vicki - thank you for publishing this. I talk about similar in the book industry, and I understand EXACTLY why you do it even with the negative returns! I can't wait to watch the film and chat to you further, and I absolutely applaud your resilience, determination and integrity, as well as your artistic skill and intellectual knowledge. What an achievement this is regardless of the figures x
Ha! You're not wrong. When people would ask me why I kept on going with the film when it was so hard, I did actually quite often used to say, 'there's something wrong with me' 🤣
Well done for sharing this. It's an intersting read. We're nearly done with out feature doc Ghosts of Alderney - Hitler's Island Slaves (shamelss plug). We've had no support form broadcasters, but all three of us producing have speant years making telly. It's daunting and also exilerating to throw yourself into a big project and we've also relied on support from amazing friends and colleagues, may of who have agreed to 'jam tomorrow'. "Is art it's own reward?" Discuss etc...
Hi Andrew. I have to say I did a double take when I saw your comment as my brother-in-law's name is also Andrew Johnstone! Your feature doc sounds great - given how much WW2 content there is I'm always surprised we don't hear more about the occupation of the Channel Islands (London-based TV commissioner bias again I guess). I'd love to hear more about it and your journey to get it made. If you're not camera-shy, maybe we could do a Substack Live to talk about it. Drop me an email or a DM on here if you fancy it - sure my subscribers would find it interesting. As for 'jam tomorrow' - I guess 'jam possibly at some time far in the future but more likely probably never' just doesn't have the same ring about it eh 🤣
We’d be happy to speak to you about it…we are ‘devising our marketing plan’ at the moment. That’s a posh way of saying we’re scrabbling about trying to figure out how to flog it…
The film industry is going through the biggest crisis I have seen since I started in 1981. There should be a huge demand for content and money from platforms to make them but the big money seems to be with idiotic reality shows like Love is Blind as an example. I have friends on the crew in the reality sector.
I am busy with a film about the South African soldiers who were prisoners of war in WWii. Thanks for your open discussion.
Thanks Willem. It does kind of feel existential at this point doesn't it. I started in the late 90s and I remember my first boss said I'd already missed the best years of working in TV. God knows what he'd think now if he was still with us. I don't doubt that those of us who feel compelled to will continue to make our films and tell the stories we feel need telling - but I do wonder if the audiences for long form, challenging stuff will still be coming through in the future. I really hope so!
Thanks for these! I sent you a DM on Substack with my email in reply to your message above but I'm not sure if you got it? You're welcome to drop me an email anytime at info@tennerfilms.com
An illuminating blast from "the coalface of independent documentary film"... Vicki Lesley shares the process behind making her excellent film, with only the barest hint of the pain... for anyone who has gone through those years of (unpaid) grind to take a germ of an idea to fruition (which take an age, while seeming to be over in minutes) this is a compelling and shocking, read. But as a film for the ages, 'Atom' will continue to inform, engage and provoke.
Thanks for such lovely words Helen! I’m also aware that I’m horrendously overdue replying to your last email from, I dunno, probably a hundred years ago now! Shall we do a video call soon..? xx
Extraordinary grit and determination on your part, Vicki, to make your important film (I found it fascinating). Amazing that independent documentary films get made at all, with the financial obstacles you describe.
Ah, I’m so glad you found it interesting Wendy - I know numbers can be a bit dry but I really wanted to share mine and hopefully I managed to do it in a way that was vaguely enjoyable to read..! It really is a very tough business and only getting tougher I think. I’m gonna need to be in a much better place financially before I can realistically think about a second feature. But I haven’t given up on docs yet.
Thank you for being uncomfortably transparent. It really is refreshing your honesty about working unpaid for over a decade while still making a film. That is such dedication and devotion.
I was pretty nervous to share (I deliberately scheduled the post to go out in the early hours when I would be asleep so I couldn’t chicken out 😄) But I genuinely think people don’t really understand what goes into making films, especially when so many people are filming and editing content at no to low cost with their phones etc. But there’s a big difference between that and an entire feature film. So I’m happy if I can play some part in shining a light on the massive slog that goes in to getting these kinds of films made…
This reminded me of my own efforts to write books that cost me money to write, but yours being at so much a larger scale, the two are not comparable. Around the time I retired, I was very keen to write a book about hospice care from the viewpoint of hospice carers – nurses, doctors, managers, even a very interesting chef. I wanted to use the method I had used in projects commissioned by others, ie interviews. This involved paying the interviewers, the transcribers and other incidental travel, tape recorders etc and the total was probably c £7000 twenty years ago. I used to say "some people go on skiing holidays, but I like to write a book about hospice care". The book sells but I have never recouped the cost. BUT the real difference is the size of the cost. Yours is mind-boggling. What balls you must have to have taken it on at all!
I know most people who know me thought I was mad for most of the years I was making the film 😄 But it was just something I wanted to do and I guess I was a bit like a dog with a bone once I got started - if I've got nothing else it's sticking power to just keep on keeping on. It's funny you mention about saying some people go on ski-ing holidays, while you chose to write your book, cos that's exactly the analogy I used so many times to people (usually gym membership, but the point's the same eh!) I know no-one is owed the privilege of making money from their creative endeavours. But there were still some pretty big sums involved here (as in all films). Just none of it came my way. I do think there needs to be more of a conversation about that balance so am hoping putting my head above the parapet will help encourage it.
Well, I must admit it was a real eye-opener for me. I had no idea of the sums required, although I would have guessed they were a lot higher than mine.
I don’t know what you were hoping from your readers. In a sense, it seems like a plea for donations, but the sums are SO high, it is impossible to meet them. If said you were a single mother and completely penniless and needed £100, say, it would be easy to send a cheque for most of it or all of it – but yours are outside the ballpark.
Oh I hope it didn't read like I was asking for money here! I actually did ask for small sums of money several times during the crowdfunding campaigns - and I expect to do that again for the next short doc I want to make (the individual donations of ten or twenty or even a hundred quid do add up and make an important contribution when you're trying to raise the budget in production).
But the main point of the piece was to shine a light on what things actually cost for people who don't know anything about how docs are funded. And for people actually working in docs to be super transparent, both as an act of solidarity with other filmmakers and to give an honest real world example to executives who fund and buy documentaries about the realities of the sector.
So insightful, and i hope your film keeps growing its audience
Thank you! 🙏
Vicki, this is the most riveting newsletter/whatever I’ve read in months. I was transfixed, partly because my only knowledge of such matters has been my understanding of book self-publishing’s economics, partly because we need selfless efforts like yours.Your perseverance is an inspiration. And your courage in opening yourself up to scrutiny sets an example for all of us.
Oh wow, I'm blushing at such compliments! Often my perseverance felt like a personality flaw (I'd berate myself that most 'normal' people would have given it up as a bad job long before I did) but I'm honestly glad I kept on going. I'm really proud of what I've achieved with the film . It just sucks that the current system means I had to suffer so much financial pain to do it...
This was relentlessly brave & informative, Vicki. Thank you so much for sharing. I'll make sure to check out your documentary. I always wanted to know more about the topic too!! Also love the topics you want to explore further ❤️
Thanks Sophie. You were one of the people who inspired me to speak up after you were so fearlessly open about the shitty situation with your Jeremy Strong-Kieran Culkin article being "borrowed" (the inverted commas doing some *heavy* lifting..!) Love to hear what you think of the film if you do get a chance to watch it 😊
I'll aim to!!
I so appreciate your candor. Doc filmmaking is an almost impossible passion to take on at the best of times but we have to go in with our eyes wide open. Thank you!
I hope I don't put anyone off - but yes, forewarned is forearmed I guess!
I so appreciate your candor. Doc filmmaking is an almost impossible passion to take on at the best of times but we have to go in with our eyes wide open. Thank you!
I so appreciate your candor. Doc filmmaking is an almost impossible passion to take on at the best of times but we have to go in with our eyes wide open. Thank you!
Wow Vicki - thank you for publishing this. I talk about similar in the book industry, and I understand EXACTLY why you do it even with the negative returns! I can't wait to watch the film and chat to you further, and I absolutely applaud your resilience, determination and integrity, as well as your artistic skill and intellectual knowledge. What an achievement this is regardless of the figures x
Thanks! And right back atcha 😍
Why do we do this? I’m convinced one day “creativity” will be seen as a “condition”.
Ha! You're not wrong. When people would ask me why I kept on going with the film when it was so hard, I did actually quite often used to say, 'there's something wrong with me' 🤣
Well done for sharing this. It's an intersting read. We're nearly done with out feature doc Ghosts of Alderney - Hitler's Island Slaves (shamelss plug). We've had no support form broadcasters, but all three of us producing have speant years making telly. It's daunting and also exilerating to throw yourself into a big project and we've also relied on support from amazing friends and colleagues, may of who have agreed to 'jam tomorrow'. "Is art it's own reward?" Discuss etc...
Hi Andrew. I have to say I did a double take when I saw your comment as my brother-in-law's name is also Andrew Johnstone! Your feature doc sounds great - given how much WW2 content there is I'm always surprised we don't hear more about the occupation of the Channel Islands (London-based TV commissioner bias again I guess). I'd love to hear more about it and your journey to get it made. If you're not camera-shy, maybe we could do a Substack Live to talk about it. Drop me an email or a DM on here if you fancy it - sure my subscribers would find it interesting. As for 'jam tomorrow' - I guess 'jam possibly at some time far in the future but more likely probably never' just doesn't have the same ring about it eh 🤣
We’d be happy to speak to you about it…we are ‘devising our marketing plan’ at the moment. That’s a posh way of saying we’re scrabbling about trying to figure out how to flog it…
The film industry is going through the biggest crisis I have seen since I started in 1981. There should be a huge demand for content and money from platforms to make them but the big money seems to be with idiotic reality shows like Love is Blind as an example. I have friends on the crew in the reality sector.
I am busy with a film about the South African soldiers who were prisoners of war in WWii. Thanks for your open discussion.
Willem Viljoen - SASC
Thanks Willem. It does kind of feel existential at this point doesn't it. I started in the late 90s and I remember my first boss said I'd already missed the best years of working in TV. God knows what he'd think now if he was still with us. I don't doubt that those of us who feel compelled to will continue to make our films and tell the stories we feel need telling - but I do wonder if the audiences for long form, challenging stuff will still be coming through in the future. I really hope so!
Any way I can get in touch by email?
https://youtu.be/4z-Lkdk8-Ws?si=MqpxKfvL-2oxL4V0
https://www.instagram.com/willem_viljoen_sasc?igsh=MWIxemJuMWNlZnM4OA%3D%3D&utm_source=qr
Thanks for these! I sent you a DM on Substack with my email in reply to your message above but I'm not sure if you got it? You're welcome to drop me an email anytime at info@tennerfilms.com